Biglifter watch the First five or so UFC's and watch Royce Gracie dominate every fighter regardless if they were 5 pounds heavier or 100...that right there should make u see how being on your back can be an advantage..these big guys leave themselves vulnerbale by trying to bull everyone they have on their back.

If i were Coutoure I would push a wheel chair with me to make it easier on the medics....there is no way he is walking out of that ring...now I am not just one of those "Lesnar is huge so he is oging to win" type people. I just think Randy has the absolute worst match-up against this freak of an athlete. When a fight goes wrong (not according to gameplan) Randy could rely on his strength whih is wrestling...now he is facing a much better wrestler (at this point in their respective careers) and if this turns into a slug fes i think Lesnar Punches him into a coma by the second round...idk maybe Randy can surprise us all once again but i think tito's slogan for shamrock is the best way to describe this fight<br />"Punish him into retirement"

unlike a lot of people here i have worked out with Randy at TQ . He is a amazing athlete and fighter . And he is alot more then a "Wrestler" . He is the best fighter I have ever worked out with ! Sean Berberick

Only through experience do I have enough endurance to roll with the smaller guys. In the beginning, I got schooled just like all the other big guys until I learned how to control breathing, adrenaline, and when to exert energy. At 265 lbs, I can go for 60 minutes straight but that is only because of experience in conservation of energy.

It's basic science that more muscle burns more energy. Surely you don't dispute that? I learned that in Biology in high school : )<br />Not to mention that you see it every day in BJJ school. As a bigger guy gets more experience, his endurance gets better because he controls his adrenaline, breathing, and becomes smarter about when to exert energy. You can go back to the dawn of time in heavyweight boxing to see examples of that principle at work. There is nothing disputable about this fact.<br />It is obvious you take offense to this because of yourself AKA "Biglifter". I challenge you to go into a MMA school and test your fight endurance--it is NOT the same as gym endurance---not even close.<br />Your arguement is that the bottom is a weaker position and that is the flaw in BJJ. That is where we disagree.<br />You said these fighter examples don't matter because you are looking at this topic as a whole. I thought we were talking about BJJ?--right?<br />Bottom line until you've trained BJJ, you will never understand. You judge BJJ by what you see on TV, assuming it is always being portrayed correctly. What you see at times is a human flaw, not a flaw in principle. BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Nog, Alameida---these guys are setting the example of how it's done from the back most of the time.

I think this thread is about to die, so I do want to say I've enjoyed discussing this with you guys, even though I disagree with your points. I see your points, I just don't agree.

You've made a list of people with active guards. These people have studied means of making themselves a threat while on their backs. That does not override the basic principle, it just lists people who have developed means of offense in a position that is vulnerable and requires a fighter to be focused on defensive holding and manuevers. The principle stands, no matter who is on the list. It is an inherent disadvantage to be on your back. You can try to compensate, as have the people on your list, but it is what it is. <br /><br />I would advise you guys to rethink some of the things you have been taught. I keep hearing this statement that the bigger stronger fighter will gas before you do. This is another theory that doesn't work well. It is not at all automatic that the person of greater strength is also the person of lesser fitness. I sense this as being another falsehood being presented in order to make smaller fighters feel better about their chances. <br /><br />Most martial arts take into consideration how to beat an opponent who has an advantage of some sort. Don't let that lead you to believe that an advantage isn't actually an advantage.

does brock deserve a title fight already? is there any other heavy weight that is next in line for a title fight? geez how about developing a fighter or building a record to earn an opportunity us this magnitude!

Also big Nog took damage from Fedor but he was trying submissions like crazy too. Any other fighter would have been submitted. Fedor is a freak and by far the best at striking from in the guard.

some others with an active guard==<br />Anderson Silva<br />Joe Stevenson<br />Both Nogueira bros<br />Carlos Newton<br />All Gracies<br />Ricco Rodriguez<br />Josh Barnett<br />Matt Serra<br />Din Thomas<br />Fedor<br />other than Joe Stevenson vs. BJ Penn, you've never seen any of these guys take much damage in the guard. They do as they are taught. The wildcard of course is when the man on top is a legit BJJ black belt like Penn. You're not going to be able to escape without turning your back and you're going to get f'ed up like Stevenson did.

I agree with Sopo, we are trained to do what the elite do--to have an active guard. With an active guard and not allowing the man on top to posture up, he is easily controlled and then submitted. When you lose control and are getting hit, it's time to sweep or escape. It's not hard to do.<br />Don't judge the entire discipline by those who don't do it correctly as they are taught. The decision to lie on your back and take damage is a personal decision--not what is taught. In an active guard like Penn's the man on top doesn't have much of a chance to strike because he is always tied up and defending submissions.

There is a list of guys who are very dangerous from their backs. Granted. You listed my personal favorite, BJ Penn.<br /><br />Within your explaination you have made my case. Being on bottom means you have to be diligent in order to avoid damage. I say it is a flaw to put yourself in a position where you are subject to that damage. You list those who are victorious on their backs, I say the list pales in comparison to those who are successful when not. The fighters who make being supine dangerous are the exception, not the rule. It would best be described as overcoming a situation of disadvantage, which is the basis of most martial arts. The bottom is the weakest of positions, and it is a flaw to seek to be in that position. <br /><br />I agree with you on the standing up, but only when there is a stalemate. I just watched Gabriel Gonzaga vs Mirko Cro Cop. Gabriel was in Mirko's guard and was landing some seriously damaging shots to Cro Cop, when Herb Dean stood them up. When the fight is active and one is damaging the other, it is rediculous to halt the action. Gonzaga came out all right, but it was a rediculous thing to do.

Some facts regarding the bottom submission... <br />It is not a stretch to say that Nogueira and Barnett are the premier submission artists in the HW class right now, correct?<br />Well over HALF of their fights were won by submission....about 70% of their submission wins are from the bottom.<br />Still think the bottom is weak?

Incorrect!!!<br />Being on your back is not a position of weakness or inferiority. If you wanted a demonstration, I would gladly give you one. Spoken like a wrestler....bottom is bad.<br />The bottom position is only bad when the fighter on the bottom is taking too much punishment. You must agree, you have seen guys on the bottom (like BJ Penn) that take little to no damage and win nearly all the time. The truth is there are more submissions available from the bottom than the top.<br />Your point of view is correct if you are saying the top MOUNT is a superior position but NOT the guard. Many, many, many fights have been won by allowing the guy on top to wear himself out and then get submitted. This is where the rule changes benefit the guys with poor ground games. In real life, a good ground game practitioner will do the same with a less skilled opponent.<br />The "flaw" as you call it, is only true when the guy on the bottom is either too stubborn or stupid to want to change the position when he is taking damage. Anyone good in submissions, (as a last resort) can turn their back from the bottom and escape. With the gloves now, it is nearly impossible to sink a choke on someone properly trained.<br />Guys like Penn, Nogueira, the Gracies, etc. won most of their fights from their back AND YES, the rounds, stand ups, and time limits greatly effected the ground fighters. You saying they protect the ground fighters is complete BS. The bigger, stronger man who would otherwise gas out, gets a break with short time limits and breaks between rounds....period. The guys I mentioned above can go for 60 minutes straight no problem when they are prepared to fight.<br />I don't disagree with the rule changes, I'm a fan too. What I do disagree with is the logic in your statements of "protecting" ground fighters. Give us the head stomps, kicks on the ground, it was that was that way for over a DECADE and we still won. Ever hear of Vale Tudo? Early UFC and Pride had those factors in place and people still got tapped out on the regular.

no Biglifter it was I with the poor communication... What I was implying and hinting towards was the fact that the rules are set to protect those who fight from the ground. Not just the safety. Though it is a smart move to learn how to fight within the rules just like it is smart to learn to play any game or anything just within the rules with out breaking them. Fighting from the back presents many challenges that JJ guys train for and are excellent at. But if you can't stand and throw as well then you are just a truely one deminsional fighter. And unfortunately for some that makes you just not able to make it or "cut it" in the UFC or any other organization. Well maybe EXC only cause the majority of their roster is still learning the sport. But yes, bad on my part not yours.

Beast: I'm not cool with stomping heads or head-kicking a downed opponent. Those are good rules. What I am saying is that it benefits JJ artists most. Sorry about the poor communication on my part.<br /><br />I am cool with a head-butt, though. They're not nearly as lethal as the head kicks to vulnerable opponents.

Yep, UFC protects fighters that are down from kicks, which is most beneficial to JJ fighters who spend a disproportionate amount of time on their backs. The obvious inherent weakness that I keep mentioning about JJ is: they are the only grapplers who are willing and sometimes eager to be on their backs. They train to apply submissions from their backs, which helps offset that particular situation, but make no mistake, being on your back is the weakest of positions. They are the only ones to willfully assume that position. Each other discipline recognizes it as being what it is, a position of weakness. Therein lies the flaw in JJ, and it is a huge one.

so basically what you are saying Biglifter is that the UFC is in essence trying to protect it's fighters by NOT letting either one Kick a downed oppenent.. Nor are they letting them STOMP them in the face. The UFC used to be like that back in the day. I remember watching a guy get punched in the balls (in case it bleeped that out it's b alls) repeatedly. That just doesn't happen anymore. <br /><br />and yes SoPo walking a Treadmill is meant to be a metaphor for not really being too terribly tough training wise as compared to MMA. just so you know..

Not so fast, the rules in UFC protect JJ practitioners in a way that Pride did not. Specifically, it is the major obvious flaw in JJ that left them more vulnerable in Pride than most other discipline practitioners, but as it turns out, the UFC (probably in conjunction with various athletic commissions) protects its JJ fighters.

Oh, and walking on a treadmill is a whole different kind of cardio than striking and grappling. Go hit a heavy bag as hard and fast as you can for 30 seconds and you'll see what I mean. Machine cardio or running is NOTHING like MMA cardio...you use every muscle in the body to burn energy.